We will probably cover most of this material on Tuesday, November 19. I'd recommend reading books III and IV in their entirety (great stuff!), but reading the following excerpts will prepare you sufficiently for the Thucydides essay on the study guide and the related ID's.III: 36-50 The Mytilene debate
III: 69-85 The revolution in Corcyra
IV: 42-48 Athenian successes/End of the revolution in Corcyra
V: 13-24 Peace of Nicias
V: 84-116 Melian Dialogue
VI: 89-93 Alcibiades justifies himself
VII: 76-87 Defeat of Nicias
Any particularly tragic elements here? Any elements of real tragedy? Are the themes/conflicts here comparable to the themes/conflicts in Aeschylus, Sophocles, and Euripides? Anything that particularly warrants Thucydides' claim that he is writing a work for all time?
This reading is full of tragic elements. One of the biggest in my opinion was the deliberations between the Mileans and the Athenians. The Athenians all but pleaded with Melos to join the Athenians noting that it would be better to serve under the Athenian empire than to become slaves to someone else, or worse yet, be killed entirely. The Melians simply said that they would rather have “hope” and trust that Sparta would come to their aid. Feeling justified after Melos denied Athenian requests, Athens attacked and eventually he men of Melos were killed, while the women and children were sold into slavery. Athens would argue pride and Melos would argue hope. Either way, the Melian’s hope ran out. Ironically, this event would seal the Athenian fate as well. Their agreement with Sparta would be negated with their attack on Melos, and would eventually lead to Sparta joining forces with Syracuse to end the Athenian rule. There's a bit a of a catharsis here for the Melians--not so much for Athens.
ReplyDeleteI think in comparison to the playwright Sophocles, there is an element of pride, similar to Philoctetes, though he eventually was told by Heracles to go to Troy to help the Greeks gain victory. The Melians in contrast were not helped by the gods or a special bow and arrow. Maybe even a pride similar to Prometheus, who suffered, but unlike the Melians, eventually found resolution with Zeus. Hope is an interestingly, powerful, element of thinking and feeling. It can give us a picture of the future worth fighting for. Though hope didn’t pan out for the Melians, they fought with it in mind. I’m not sure that Thucydides’ report of history is the best work of all time, but there are certainly many elements, such as timeline, cause and effect, as well as, using great detail to paint a picture that is impressive. I think his ability to handle the enormity of information and put together a consistent structure for the reader puts him high up on the list.
-Jonathon Fargher
Tragedy is basically the main theme among these readings. The most apparent example is The Mytilenian Debate. The tragedy is the initial decision to kill all the men and sell the woman and children as slaves. They were unsure if the act has been carried out yet or not when they sent out the second message. What tragedy it would have been had they not voted in favor of sparing the Mytilenians or if the new message had not made it in time. There is one obvious example of tragedy, but what really makes me think of the great playwrights is the catharsis that takes place at the end of this historical tale. The catharsis of the second message making it in time to spare the men before they were killed and before any irreparable damage was done. Besides this example, there are plenty of other tragic elements scattered throughout the readings.
ReplyDeleteThere are definitely tragic elements in these readings, mainly with their connections to various themes explored in tragedies, such as right v. right. One example with these is in Alcibiades’s speech to Sparta. In asking Sparta to go to war with Athens, Alcibiades is having a small conflict of right v. right with himself. He knows that the Athens is currently in the wrong from his view and that it would be the right thing to try to stop them, but he also has the connection of being from Athens and knowing that it would be right to support them, or at the least not support their enemies. There are also elements of real tragedy in the stories here. In his speech, Alcibiades mentions that the Athens he’s hoping that Sparta will fight against is not the Athens that he knew. It really highlights Athens fall from being the good guy in Greece, and how their initial purpose has been undermined by their leaders. This documentation of the feelings of people from both sides of the war I think help to show Thucydides’ claim that he’s writing a work for all time, because he’s open to having both sides of the war in this book without really censoring or altering them in too much of a way.
ReplyDelete-Sam Tucker
One of the best cases of tragedy comes from Alcibiades's plea to Sparta to go to war with Athens. On the shallowest of notes, you have a former resident of the city seemingly turning traitor and asking for a war to happen in place of peace. Dig a little deeper and you find someone who thinks he's doing the right thing by asking for a foreign power to help dismantle a terrible regime. However, and this is where Thucydides really shines, there's an even deeper layer where the underlying tragedy comes into play.
ReplyDeleteYou have Alcibiades, a man who has seen the moral standard of his once great city crumble under terrible leadership, and now he tasks himself with instigating its doom in a sort of mercy kill by going to what he once considered former enemies to help him destroy what was once no doubt a pride and joy of his.