We will move on to Books VII-XVII of the Iliad Thursday. You can skim over the descriptions of the actual fighting if you like These scenes are exciting, but it's not essential for you to try to follow the ebb and flow of the battles: I'll summarize that for you in class. Books 9 (pp. 216-235) ,14 (pp. 315-329. 15 (pp. 330-350), and 16 (pp. 351-374) are probably the most helpful in giving you material for your potential exam essay. That's 75 pages. Still too much? I want quality over quantity, so figure out what's manageable for you, even if it's only one chapter.For the blog here, choose one incident/passage from these books that reminds you of something in the Bible or that differs substantially from the kind of thing one might expect to find in a Bible and explain your choice, noting how this passage shows the Iliad to be either like the Bible or quite different.
You might look especially at the attempts to mend the relationship between Agamemnon and Achilles, the very odd scene between Zeus and Hera, and Zeus' lament about fate.
The fight between Aias and Hektor, in book 7 stands out by its ending. Sort of two fold, in that I'm not familiar enough with the Bible enough to say there's never been a bit where two men fight and both are chosen by god and thus the fight must cease. However, it is very bible-like in the sense that it lays down some guidances. Hector tells Aias that they will be both welcomed warmly in their own camps, because both have proven themselves as *admirable* fighters and deserving of the praise. Although once again, it is unlike the Bible in that there will come a time where only one is desired to live by the gods and the fight will finish. Which stands in contrast to the Bible in which losing the favor of god rests on the man and not the god.
ReplyDeleteBook 14 of the Iliad depicts the Greek Gods very differently than the Christian Bible does. In the book, Hera tricks and deceives multiple different people in order to get what she wants. Hera attempts to distract Zeus in order to help the Achaean army, tricks Aphrodite into giving her an enchanted wristband, offers her daughter to the embodiment of sleep, and sleeps with Zeus in order to distract him. Hera, at least in this book, is depicted as somewhat conniving and tricky, unlike the Christian God. God certainly interacts with humans throughout the Bible, but there isn't a time I know of where I could describe him as conniving. He's never seen making "backroom deals" or influencing others in the same way Hera does here. Rather, his interactions with people center around respectful guidance.
ReplyDeleteIn book book fourteen, Sleep, operating from a deal made with Hera, goes and puts Zeus into a slumber, so that he can give Poseidon word to help defend the Danaans. Sleep says, "Poseidon, now with all your heart defend the Danaans..." (line 357). The Iliad seems similar to the Old Testament Bible, in that, these god's (e.g. Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, etc.) seem to be, according to Homer, very involved in the affairs of mankind. The same is true of God in the Old Testament, and His relationship to men like Abraham, Moses, Joshua, and David. For example, God tells Joshua to take the Israelites and walk around the city of Jericho in order to bring down the city (Joshua Ch. 6). Both the Iliad and the Bible depict God or gods that are involved with what is happening on the Earth. Very interesting.
ReplyDelete-Jonathon Fargher
In Book Nine of The Iliad, it talked about arranged marriages which was quite common back unlike the western world today. The Bible even has arranged marriages in it such as Genesis 24: 8: “And if the woman will not be willing to follow thee, then thou shalt be clear from this my oath: only bring not my son thither again.” This is where Issac son of Abraham married Rebekah from Mesopotamia. Surprisingly arranged marriages are still being practiced today, most notably in Indian, Islamic, and Jewish families in the US.
ReplyDeleteMitchell Buller wrote this
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ReplyDeletei have to agree with Johnathan's finds in book fourteen as well. since most ancient Religions have their gods almost always directly involved in mortal affairs. From the ancient Hebrews, to the ancient Greeks, the the major Mesopotamian cultures, and even the ancient Japanese to some extent; the Divine powers were almost always meddling in mortal affairs. from the everyday events like chariot racing, worship, or even markets, to the big events like conquest or revolution. In Wartime, the gods often "secretly" support different sides, but much like superpower intervention during the cold war, they hardly ever squared off with each other directly without there being indescribable and terrible consequences for the mortal world.
ReplyDeleteI feel that in book 8 there is a lot of similarity to most religions of the world - there was a lot of respect for the dead, and that respect was awarded not just to their own people but to the enemy's as well. Having specific burial practices and taboos is common to all cultures and is one of the first things looked at in an anthropological sense - even the earliest of humanity seemed to have elaborate means of addressing death, and it (and the afterlife) is a tenet of most religions. Just like the Bible expects respect for death and the dead, so does the Iliad.
ReplyDeletei found that too. a lot of the ancient mythologies have high amounts of respect for the dead. Different burial practices were used throughout the different cultures and at different time frames. for instance, the Macedonians at the time of Alexander the great burned their dead while the classical Greeks often buried their dead with two coins to cover the eyes. this was to pay Charon, the bargeman of the underworld, to cross into the halls of Hades/the underworld. the Iliad described the burial practices of the Mycenaean's briefly. The Iliad also describes the life of Achilles and that he was quick to anger, but also had his tragic flaw, where we get the poetic term "Achilles heel", that was exploited by Hector of Troy's relative, Paris. though Achilles' Death isn't directly stated in the Iliad, details of his death was present in other sources.
DeleteIn the Iliad, the story that stuck with me most was the story of Agamemnon and Achilles. What had happened was in the battle of Troy, Agamemnon and Achilles were allies. Helping each other out; friends. But, then, Agamemnon takes Apollo (God of the suns) priests daughter. Apollo gets very angry and tells him to give her back. Then casts a plague on Agamemnon and Achilles whole camp. Achilles tells Agamemnon to give her back, but Agamemnon gets angry and takes Achilles's love instead. This story reminds me, kind of, the story of Joseph and the lions den in the Bible. These stories aren't very similar but the motive is the same. Joseph was the fathers favorite and the rest of the brothers were extremely jealous of him. His father gave Joseph a long coat, and then the brothers found out they were very angry and tried to kill Joseph. To me, these stories are similar because they all start out being allies. But, then something strikes them to do something terrible. I think that a little bit of jealousy goes into the reason why Agamemnon took Achilles's lover and not someone else. Just like the Joseph's brothers.
ReplyDeleteI think that the biggest difference between the Iliad and the Bible are, obviously, the values that each book holds. The Bible says to love your neighbor as yourself, don’t kill, don’t steal, don’t covet, etc. The big thing I notice the more I read is that the Iliad solves problems and disagreements by fighting duels while the Bible would tell you to forgive that person. Whereas the Bible is more forgiving and kind of passive, the Iliad leans more to an active solution: kill them. This, obviously, is so far from the values of the Bible, considering that the Bible says “thou shalt not kill,” that it’s not even funny. People are being used and abused and it is acceptable. Theft, deception, hatred of each other (which is called anger) for some reason or another. The values of the Bible and the values of the Iliad are all but polar opposites. Saul behaved in this way before he became Paul. He killed Christians because, in his book, they were wrong and he hated them. In a sense, I think he killed them because they were defecting from the Jewish way and in doing so were, in his mind, dishonoring God and the Jewish people. He went around killing and God changed this...he showed Saul how wrong he was in doing these things. In this example, the Bible is showing that killing is wrong...even when dishonor is why you're killing. The Iliad, on the other hand, enforces that you kill to solve problems especially if the problem is dishonor. As I said before, the values in these two books are polar opposites.
ReplyDeleteEach god favors different men, and when these men are at war, celestial wars often rage as well. External circumstances in The Iliad caused struggles not only in the mortal domain but among the gods. Ares therefore correctly ascribes the gods’ “chilling blows” to their “own conflicting wills.” (book 5) I think this is one way that it differs so greatly from the bible because, our God in our bible doesn’t pick favorites and doesn’t fight with anyone in the heavens he is an understanding and all-knowing God who is fair and just.
ReplyDeleteLindsey Landenberger
One of my personal favorite differences between the Iliad and the bible is the way in which God(s) assist(s) the mortals. While there is heavy intervention in both stories, it is the way in which the intervention is presented that almost makes the Iliad seem somewhat comical.
ReplyDeleteThe God in the Christian bible lays down groundwork, and then oversees the actions of those taken upon it, while the Greek Gods seem more content to interfere whenever something mildly amuses them or gives them some small gain. To put it in a certain perspective, the Christian God is the referee in a boxing match, while the Greek Gods are the various mob family members who threw out bribe money to see the fight end in a certain way.